Decentral Lens: Ledger Hack | Security Strategies | Crypto Lobby | SOL Enters Top 5

Speaker 1: 0:00

If crypto becomes mainstream and the stronger it gets, the less money printer can go burr because you have an off-ramp.

Speaker 2: 0:09

Welcome to Decentralized On, where lifelong friends Chicago and Disco navigate the ever-evolving crypto landscape With genuine curiosity and a commitment to nuance as our North Star. We offer clear-eyed exploration. Our goal To empower listeners with the tools and insights needed to flourish from this decentralized age. Hey everybody.

Speaker 1: 0:31

We are back week after week after week. I am Chicago and to my right I always get the left side. This is awesome. Is Disco?

Speaker 2: 0:41

It's as if I got the last chair in the old in the proverbial chair chair pulling game.

Speaker 1: 0:46

Hey, you know what? Whoever runs the controls gets to pick the side that they're on that, I will happily defer if that's the case. I take the left, and even though as a lefty, I think we probably would have benefited more from reading right to left than left to right, society has bent our arms to doing it the right-handed person's way, and this is one of them. I get the left side. That's the bottom line. How are you doing today Disco?

Speaker 2: 1:17

I think one of the biggest carryover curses I had was being shamed for my handwriting, for my large palm, dragging across the page and having ink on the bottom of my palm. Oh, kids are so lucky they get to use keyboards these days. I sound like an old man, but I'm serious. I hate writing.

Speaker 1: 1:37

Well and remember, the erasable pen was invented in the 80s and then all lefties got that and were excited and were quickly like wow, that's like 8x the smudge, like literally nothing was left on the paper, it was all in your hand. So at least non-erasable ink. You had most of it there with the smudge, and a lefty too. You always know a lefty, even if there are lines. It always goes down as you go to the right too, because you can't see where you came from.

Speaker 2: 2:08

What was the and I know that you'll probably be able to pull this out of the memory tank, but what were the name of the markers that smelled that we used, Because those were often on my hands as well?

Speaker 1: 2:18

Yeah, were those scratch and sniffs. No, that was the stickers that you got through the Scholastic Club and those things were awesome like grape sniff and root beer sniff and they were like little, like root beer guys, like little cartoon characters. Oh, but my spouse would know the name of that.

Speaker 2: 2:37

I'll show you what we're talking about.

Speaker 1: 2:39

I'm not listening to you. I need to remember the name of those markers. It's like magic marker.

Speaker 2: 2:44

No, obviously they were called magic markers. I wanted to say almost sketchers, but that turned into a shoe brand. So we'll have to do a circle back. I didn't mean to tangent us all already, yeah no thanks.

Speaker 1: 2:55

Now you got my brain like you got the beaver teeth, gnawing on the wrong piece of wood.

Speaker 2: 3:00

Mr Sketch, I believe is what they were called.

Speaker 1: 3:02

Yeah, you're like, that's it, that's final. Don't think about it, it's Mr Sketch.

Speaker 2: 3:07

Woo, I would have liked to have thought about some of the stuff that was. I would have liked a little escape this last couple, this week or so, with some of the news that was going on. So God, it was a little, a little, I guess, slightly jarring, I guess, was you know, kind of the my kind of net on how you know at least that some of the news coming into the end of last week.

Speaker 1: 3:28

Jarring from like is anything I do or hold hardware, wallet or not, safe jarring.

Speaker 2: 3:36

Yes, and if I'm doing everything that is supposed to be the best practices, yet it still feels vulnerable, jarring. That's jarring, you know, and what we're kind of dancing around a little bit was, you know, one of the biggest stories in the last week and frankly, in quite a long time, you know. Was was tied to the ledger system and you know, some something got compromised there and the way it kind of leaked out was just, you know, I woke up and was checking the feed, as I tend to do, if I ever get the luxury of falling asleep, and I just was like, oh my God, no, you know, it's like don't interact and everything. So it went from like a it just went to like red alert code, code, red alert, pretty quick and in my mind at least, and it was, you know, as I say, it was kind of unsettling and kind of jarring.

Speaker 1: 4:24

Well, I think it was unjarring for you too. But explain to people where you were. You weren't home with your ledger so you couldn't even revoke if you wanted to. So you're sweating bullets on a little mini vacation and you're just like it's all gone. So you know, I told my wife. I'm a crypto, and now I've lost it all, just you know, just like half the other people.

Speaker 2: 4:45

Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying to, you know, do the other best practice of occasionally touching grass and getting away, and the second I'm driving up to a place to, you know, have some outdoor recreation. You know that hits and you know I'm two hours plus away from you know, being able to check it. So it was kind of a battle in my mind to, like you know, tune it out and think positively and think everything will work out, which in the end, for at least for me, it did and but it is. But it is kind of an example of you know how we are really still. We're still on the, still on the front line, so to speak.

Speaker 1: 5:17

Yeah, no, well said, so let's jump right in. So our first story really the conglomerative stories are the hacks, right? So the first and biggest one late last week was the ledger hack, which I mean. So many people like you said they think they're doing the right thing. They've got your hardware wallet you know, not your keys, not your crypto. Thank you, andreas. Has been beat into everybody's heads and yet you're still vulnerable. So let's get into what happened.

Speaker 1: 5:50

So ledger, through their, basically their code, which a lot of sites use to be able to connect to ledger, which is open source software, which you would think would be super safe, wasn't. And some sites like revoke cash, which is a little ironic because revoke cash is what revokes. It's a genius site that revokes permissions of your different wallets that we're sitting out there, like old open C permissions and and Uniswap, and you know those are the more trustworthy ones. But and who knows what you've signed in the last, you know, six months to a year, that could get exploited, a smart contract could get exploited. And all of a sudden you're like, oh man, I was so careful and I still lost my money. I mean, if that wasn't, if that wouldn't be super deflating, I don't know what would be.

Speaker 2: 6:44

Yeah, exactly, and you go from you know, okay, well, I want to get you know things off the exchanges into, you know, completely offline, and you know doing it that way, and then just the feeling of, oh, I could have lost.

Speaker 2: 6:58

You know what I've been trying to save and try to build for the future. So it makes you wonder, you know what's the best move moving forward. You know some of these options become interesting again. You know, I know that, even like Coinbase, like I'm a Coinbase one guy, and they say and I need to look into it more but they say you get up to a million dollars of insurance on your holdings and I want to make sure I understand exactly, you know what the fine print loopholes would be there. But that starts to look a little bit more enticing when you see you know a company that's dedicated to security and you'll probably know this better than I. But at some point in this it was like you know basic, you know basic operating procedures, with old employees not having access to things, but apparently like an old employee was involved or, you know, provided kind of the opportunity for this vulnerability to come to life.

Speaker 1: 7:50

Yeah, and it just shows you how kind of, how loosely things are run.

Speaker 1: 7:59

I've got a really good pal one of my favorite people in the world at Kraken and their security, like every security, is first in everything that they do and they're you know because, think about it, the more employees you have, the more you have to train each one of them to do best practices, because the social engineering out there is just insane. So this hack basically it affected of revoke cash, which is a big one, sushi swap, it affected phantom, it affected balancer I mean big, big Madam mask too right.

Speaker 1: 8:32

Was Meta mask affected? I don't use ledger or Meta mask and that's all I'm going to say on that, but I have not used those in quite a while.

Speaker 1: 8:42

Now sometimes I may spoof is Meta mask, which probably opens me up to some vulnerabilities, but I actually don't use it because there's been too many warning signs in the last I don't know year or two, just like it's just not super, super safe. So most of these sites you know. If you interacted with one of these sites at specific times I believe it was on December 14th be careful and then you know, revoke a lot of your stuff. I'm actually going to kind of show folks how to do it. This is the irony is not lost on me here, but let me share my screen here for a second and for those listening, we explain stuff really well.

Speaker 1: 9:26

But this is my main hot wallet, so I'm kind of exposing myself here. I'm using revoke cash. I'm not connected, I'm not fucking crazy or stupid, but I'm not connected here. But I did put in my wallet address just for everybody here to see like I'm pretty good about stuff. But I've got a hot wallet that I've been using probably for too long that I just buy and sell stuff. I don't keep anything expensive in there, but I might always have a couple of teeth in there. But look at a revoke cash gave my wallet health a 15. So I'm pretty sure that isn't out of 20. It's out of 100. So, like like on that clock it goes, as you can imagine, it doesn't go very far so we're sitting for those who can't see.

Speaker 2: 10:15

We're sitting about 230, so to speak. If we're doing the clock and the 15 out of 100. That's 15 out of 100.

Speaker 1: 10:21

My wallet health is a joke. So if you look down, I sorted it by the wallet risk, high to low, and if you look in here most of these are NFTs. If you look, it's important to see whether here or in ether scan your total value at risk. The big one you want to look at obviously is the dollar amount which is over to the right. There my dollar risk is zero. These are all contracts that have been done. So my bookie here feel Lux like those are worthless. So lo-fi. Those went to zero, nuclear nerds zero. I got a really good trade record here.

Speaker 2: 11:00

I'm really put my foot on this. What are you going to buy next? What are you investing in next? Hey?

Speaker 1: 11:04

everybody have. I got the alpha for you, you know but I swear I do have one. I got a Zuki down here. That was my big win. That offset all the losses. But I got my crazies.

Speaker 1: 11:16

I got mad. I got a bunch in here. But look at how much. Look at how much is open there's. For those who can't see, there's at least 40 or 50 things I have open. Now does that mean I have to go and revoke each one? For me, the answer is probably no. I'm probably going to just spin up a new software wallet for my hot wallet and I think it's good practice for people every once in a while, like get a new plate with your monomic seed, get a new hardware wallet or get a new like 24 seed phrase and a super secret 25th word Start over, like there's, there's nothing precluding you from moving your stuff around and being secure every couple of years and I think, as this 15 will indicate, I'm overdue. So I think revocast in general is a good site. That's why I went there and I wasn't afraid. You know, obviously I just put my address in, I did not connect my wallet, I'm not, I'm not signing anything, but you know they they fix the exploit right away. And the other thing I like about revocash is they have this exploits tab. So I mean, look at this and we're going to talk about all these hacks because I just want to call this like. I don't know if it's hack week or hack month, but look at this, they're very good.

Speaker 1: 12:31

So flooring protocol hack two million worth of NFTs has been stolen from NFT frack fractionalization platform flooring. That was three days ago. That was for 1.8 million stolen before it got fixed. That's 1.8 million that we know about. Bunch of board apes, punchy penguins and stuff like that. Nft traderio got hacked. A bunch of board apes, mutin apes. A ton of stuff was stolen. In fact, yuga stepped up big time and they were before Fubar came in. I think quit and Fubar two of some of the best and most known solidity coders on Twitter but in the Ethereum space came in and patched these holes pretty quick. I mean, these guys were lucky. They had the outside guns, they had the real deal coming and help them, but Yuga was going to reimburse these apes that got stolen.

Speaker 1: 13:29

On this NFT trader An NFT trader is this peer-to-peer network, but I just wanted to show you. Nft trader, do you see anything about the hack on their homepage? Yeah, I don't see. Oh, it must be at the bottom here. Disco oh wait. Oh, you know what? I'm sorry, it's in the blog section. Oh, how to create an NFT. So again, nft trader, like what? Come on, step up, you got hacked, fine, you weren't the originator, but communicate with your people, or people, I mean, who would ever use this platform if you can't even communicate with your users? So I just thought that was pretty comical.

Speaker 2: 14:18

So just really quick, something that came up today I guess that's related, as Ledger did say that they're going to make anybody whole who was impacted by the exploit, and when you look at the numbers, it looks like it was really 600,000 in crypto assets that were stolen. So in the bigger, bigger picture, based on even what we see, which isn't getting a lot of hype, it's kind of a smaller, actual in-app.

Speaker 1: 14:43

That's nothing. I mean 600,000. But it cracked the eggshell.

Speaker 2: 14:47

It was like your one job is to not let this happen yet and let it happen. So that's what's going on, and I guess that they said that they're going to disable all blind signing on DAPS by June of 24. So I mean they're being responsive, I guess. But you can only imagine something that's valued at what they are and with the amount of trust that was kind of handed their way from the ecosystem, especially during the FTX times and everything like that, where it was like get your stuff off of an exchange, get it on this, use a Ledger or whatever it is, it's a pretty big mud in your eye, so to speak, when you're sitting there like, great, this is what we do and we didn't do it well enough. So shame on that for happening. Decent response, I suppose, but again, it's not something you ever want to see a company that's based on security responding to. I think that's ridiculous that that NFT market had no indication of what's happening. I mean, where's the transparency that?

Speaker 2: 15:45

should be so tied to this whole thing.

Speaker 1: 15:47

Well, just remember, too, ledger. This isn't Ledger's first black eye In 2020, this is the worst one, and a lot of people who weren't around or didn't have a Ledger yet in the space don't really know about this, but their marketing department let the entire user base get hacked. So it's probably a simple social engineer. Obviously, this isn't probably the most protected stuff they had there, but it should have been, because if you think about it, if you have names and addresses of every Ledger user I mean the $5 wrench attack that becomes a terrifying reality, and maybe we're too early for mainstream folks to realize that. But that is such a massive breach that I was so thankful that I never interacted with that company when I heard that news, because you want to feel safe.

Speaker 1: 16:44

So this summer, ledger actually had a subscription so that they could access your private keys. Now, it wasn't them just getting your private keys, but basically they said we're going to split the you know kind of a multi-sig. If you want it for $9 a month, we're going to do a multi-sig. We're going to have one piece of it and two other totally separate companies are going to have the other pieces of it. And he flippantly threw in his press release. He said we could do this and write code to access the private keys on your wallet at any time. But we don't. That was since deleted because that's one of those tone deaf things you say. But it just goes to show you, even though it's open source, ledger's track record is mostly good. It makes you realize, in crypto and with not your keys, not your crypto, close enough isn't good enough. You have to be perfect.

Speaker 2: 17:54

Especially if you're specializing. So if you're a general operation we've talked before about the 19,000 things that Coinbase is attempting to do right now and everything from base to working potentially with the institutions coming in and all that stuff and you look at something where it's basically a hardware wallet company, for lack of a better thing. Shame on these companies for getting greedy and trying to find additional revenue streams off of this, and I think that's kind of the net of my takeaway. It's like what you just said okay, well, for an additional 999,. Stop with the 999,. Stop with all this and stop with trying to move people to subscription models for better services and getting away from the core product offering and what you're supposed to be good at. Be good at what you do and continue to do it, and as more people come into the space, then you're going to benefit from that.

Speaker 2: 18:46

But don't try to be some generalist that is going to find new revenue streams Just with using ledger. Like I get a little turned off just by the amount of things they're trying to do. It's like going into something else or like, hey, stake with us here and do this here, and every time you're interacting with something else it increases your potential vulnerability. So it shouldn't be like going and then getting pitched to upsell into their other programs and opportunities. I just think it's somewhat disingenuous.

Speaker 1: 19:14

Yeah, it's a good point. I think the best analogy for ledger and probably throw a metamask in there too is they're more akin to Microsoft, like over the past 20, 30 years. You know, if you had a Windows computer, all the hacks and exploits were there because their market share was so much greater. Now, with greater market share, you would think that'd be also hardening more money to be more secure. But the reality is that's where the hacks and exploits are going to be. And now with crypto, the beauty is, once someone hacks you, as long as they can keep a clean footprint and they're anonymous, they're gone. So crypto is just like a hacker's. It's like a dream come true. So you know I this isn't fully advice, but it kind of is as well. Like when Apple was still small and growing, there were very few exploits on Apple because they simply have such a smaller install base. Now Apple's always put security front and center to at least that's kind of the tune that they've always been singing to us. Is it still safe for the Microsoft? Yeah, I would argue it is because Microsoft has all these versions, whereas Apple's a siloed garden. That's, that's one of the things of the siloed garden. That's actually good for that.

Speaker 1: 20:29

But I guess I would take that analogy to crypto. You know, if you've got the less like a cold card I mean that's Bitcoin only but if you've got kind of less known or less used or more air gapped stuff, you've got to keep whatever hardware you wallet with your most valuable stuff. Do not let that give permissions and touch the air of of all this stuff that's going on. You know what I mean. Like look, look, you know all it takes. Just again, look, look what I did over the years with my hot wallet. Now I don't do this with my hardware wallets, obviously, but my hot wallet this is hot mess.

Speaker 1: 21:09

Like, remember, when you revoke something, you can do it on revokecash or you can go to ether scan. Your plan of ether scan, dot IO, you know, which everybody definitely knows and trusts. I would say revoke cash. You might want to look at stuff here and then, just because they have a little better information, but on ether scan is where you can revoke it. But I would definitely strongly recommend everybody take a look, see what the total value you have, stuff you've interacted with. See if there's stuff that should be revoked, like obviously might the bokeh and all these NFTs. They're in my hot wallet because I don't really care about them and a lot of these things have long since sold, so obviously I'm not worried about them. But if I was holding a bunch of a zoo key there and I saw this, I'd be like, ooh, I'm not selling a zoo key right now, let's revoke it. And just remember, you do have to pay gas to revoke each one.

Speaker 1: 22:06

That's why part of me is now, like you know, it's time to fire up a new time to fire up a new hot wallet and transfer stuff over and start anew and be a lot of people. And I'm going to be a little more savvy this time because you know, knock on wood, I have not been hacked yet. But you know, I've seen so many people get hacked and so many people who are way smarter than me get hacked because all it takes is to get caught up in that moment. It's probably a good time to talk about these types of hacks I would call like bugs in the code or, like you know, in the hardware or the software or the site you know, and then you just got pure up malicious people trying to get you to sign stuff. I'd say that's all code related. But there's a whole nother side of getting hacked that people need to realize and that's getting socially engineered. Like don't think that if you don't, you know I have a crypto punk, I've got an order punk, don't. I would be stupid to think that people aren't following me just to find surface vectors to attack. You just have to assume everybody is a scammer and you just. You just have to. So this is this sucks.

Speaker 1: 23:20

And this show is actually dedicated to Xenophone, probably one of my favorite people in the ordinals and and the Ethereum space. He's a coder, he's in a security, the guy's super, super smart. So, unfortunately, yesterday he lost his ordinal punk and for those who don't know the Bitcoin ordinal side, in my opinion and I'm biased, but ordinal punks are the Grails there's sub thousand inscriptions and there's only a hundred of them and it's a great group of folks and I think it's the best collection. Personally, on ordinals, he got his and they're. The floor is at one point nine five now, but for his it was probably three or four bitcoins. So call it, let's just call it a hundred plus grand, and he got his in. This guy works on security. He is he's, he's orders of magnitude smarter than me and most of the collectors in the space.

Speaker 1: 24:19

So I'm bringing this up because it's important for people to understand what happened. So basically in discord, when, when Bitcoin ordinal started, there was no market places, there was nothing, so it was the Wild West and a lot of us were buying from people we didn't know, using spreadsheets, using middlemen, I know, and women, I know. Now it sounds absolutely as nine and insane, especially since we have magic Eden that takes 2.5 percent, which to me is pretty fair, but it was very common. So there's like five people in the space who are the most respected people in the space and they have been brokering stuff forever. So an easy way to manipulate that is to mask is that person?

Speaker 1: 25:11

Well, everybody knows the basic trick like hey, it's me the reputed person, and they just put your PFP on there and they pretend to be you with the name. That game has been figured out. But where this gets really insidious, I want to show you something. So this same person who stole from Zeno was talking to me and I'm I'm realizing I'm being a Jack S2. So he's like hey, I'd like to offer you a five Bitcoin for punk 46. Are you selling? And I'm more cat and mouse because I'm like immediately.

Speaker 2: 25:46

Yeah, you're in cagey, but I also I think it's.

Speaker 1: 25:50

But immediately I'm I think it's a scam and and like I'm like no, I like my 46, curious on how you plan on buying. So I'm already trying to figure out what this scammer's angle is, because people generally don't just reach you and DMs be like hey, I got what's five Bitcoin right now to I got 214 grand. Like I want to buy ordinal punk here, like, and that's why I'm like, ok, great, I'll put it on magic and you go buy it. And what they do is they're like oh yeah, magic in. Like they, they loosen you up.

Speaker 1: 26:19

What I didn't realize is I, if you look to the right of the screen, this Alameda guy, and this guy changes his name 20 times a day. There's two or three of them, or it's him being really fast on two computers. I was already following him because whatever name he used before had already hit me up. So keep that in your head. This is, this is how super smart people can get hacked, because it's important. So he's talking to me shooting the shit. I had already friended him months ago, so he's you know, but I don't go and DMs that often. I mean, think about it like I'll entertain any offer, but I'm probably just going to like mess with the. You know, that's what I'm saying. I'm just messing with the. You know the cat and mouse on the string, right? So so I'm talking to him and he's like no, but I really want yours. And I, what do I say to him? I'm like, finally, I'm like, oh, today only feels like a pressure move all past. So I'm basically saying, like, dude, I know you're a scammer. So I posted this in one of my groups that Zeno's in and he was already dealing with the guy and a fake person. But here's why it's important the fake prominent person had already reached out to him as a different person in discord than right before they switch to the super prominent fake person. Right, they switch names. Then this person, the prominent person, reaches out to you. They're already friends with you, so your guard is down. They're like oh, hey, dude, oh yeah, cool, yeah, let's do a three way DM and we'll do it. So then these both were already friends with them. And look, I'm part of this because I let this guy in and didn't ban him after playing cat and mouse. If you look on the right there, it says for mutual friends. So a mutual friend is a way to say like, oh, he's cool, like, oh, chicago's got knows him. This is, this is the real prominent person. And obviously it wasn't. And there are mutual servers too, right, the big servers like it.

Speaker 1: 28:23

Those are little signals we consciously and subconsciously use to keep your, you know, to get your hackles up or down. So his, his hackles were down because the prominent guy reached out to him again, the person who had just changed their name, then the person you know. They even haggled and over haggled. These scammers did to make it feel very real. So this was a con.

Speaker 1: 28:44

That went on for months. They sit quietly in your DMs and then they strike here, switch the name and then they're like, hey, send it to me and we'll see if this guy sends the ETH. If he doesn't, or the Bitcoin. If he doesn't, I'll send it right back to you. And you know you're doing 20 other things in the space. You send it to him and then, all of a sudden, on our DM, we're all posting and I'm like, yeah, this guy feels like a scammer and people are like, dude, be careful, there's a lot of fake prominent guys masking out there. And he's like, yeah, I know, I know, but this, this was him and then all of a sudden I think it just dawned on me he sent it.

Speaker 1: 29:20

It was like, oh my gosh, I just got taken on the stuff that I protect other people for, and it shows you how, how smooth these guys are now, how sophisticated they've become. So you know the net net obviously is with all of this, keep a hardware wallet and keep your super expensive stuff and your big stash as a Bitcoin or Ether or whatever you have. Keep them way off. So you can't do this and it's hard for you to get it. So you have time to slow down and make these decisions. Had that prominent person showed up in our Discord chat. He showed up like 15 minutes later. He's like, oh my God, I am so sorry. I was just out for lunch, like the timing was just perfect. They slid in, they kept it smooth, the deal was, the transfer was made, I should say, and the scam was complete. It's just it breaks. It absolutely breaks your heart.

Speaker 2: 30:20

Yeah. So thus far we've started this show off with, you know, a pretty disheartening sentiment and I think that the the the thing, the takeaway is, I think you really hit on something that I think is really important for me to work into my day to day and, I think, for everybody, which is almost put, you know, hurdles and guardrails in your own structure, because we've, all you know, just gotten, you know, hijacked with you know, some manipulations on so many things, whether it be, oh, I got to buy this right now. You don't really have to buy many things right that second or do a deal that quickly. And you were, I give you credit for being cagey enough to kind of recognize what's this urgency of this? Going down today, like in, they're going to work in urgency and you don't really have to act from a position of urgency. You don't have to succumb to someone else's urgency or kind of the community's urgency on anything. The best thing oftentimes and even from the ledger hack right, the best thing was to just not interact with your ledger until the thing you know kind of cooled off and all that happens.

Speaker 2: 31:29

So anytime you feel this urgency, like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, like kind of, like you know, put another dollar down at the casino or whatever. It's like you can always walk away. You should always walk away, and I remember you were even talking about this with you know. Just, you know kind of your complexion in you know and how you look at some of this stuff. It's like you almost will stake either stake something so that there's just an extra layer to keep you from spending it, and you know, let it do its thing from. You know holding it and potentially you know getting. You know returns from staking, but really that's also kind of giving yourself. You know a cool down period and you know, in so many things in society, if people were able to implement a little cool down period and not let things escalate, that's something to really protect human nature against.

Speaker 2: 32:22

As we get hit with so many new inputs in this. You know kind of new space and new age and it's going to be. I can't even imagine. You know everyone talks about you know, oh, is AI going to eat up the world? Is it going to be machines? Is it going to be like the Terminator? It's like no, but it's going to get a heck of a lot more sophisticated in learning how to play with people's emotions and get them to act on things that could potentially be very detrimental.

Speaker 2: 32:43

So I'm just, I'm disgusted, I'm super sad. I don't know the person you're referring to, but just from an empathetic standpoint, we all know that feeling. Even when you're transferring something from wallet to wallet and it takes a moment for it to land, you have that feeling in your gut of like did I do this right? Is it coming? Where is it? It could all be gone, and that's the whole. That's the whole thing of the immutability and everything like that is, once something's done, it's done and you can't get like, give backs. You know, and the stakes are high and people are putting a lot of their lives into these investments and I think it's a great long-term investment play. But I do think you know putting some speed bumps in place for your own self preservation is probably an interesting tactic to employ.

Speaker 1: 33:26

Yeah, definitely Make it hard for you to be hijacked by yourself. You know multi-sig whatever you need to do. We'll talk about more of this in future shows, for sure. But, zeno, this episode is dedicated to you. You're one of our favorite people in the space. You always have a good attitude and you're so smart and thank you for sharing that on Twitter, because it just so many people you know that can learn from that lesson at how smooth they're getting and, as Disko said, they're only going to get smarter. So be careful out there. You know we'll continue to talk about best practices and we'll continue to, you know, talk about the exploits out there, so we can all kind of stick together as a community and have fun in the space and, hopefully, make money and collect cool art and be safe too. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:24

Well said. Speaking of getting smart, I wish that you know, some of the people in our government would get a little smarter in terms of how they are viewing the evolution of, you know, this space overall. And you know, this week we were dealing with you know I don't want to, you know, call people unwise or whatever, but once again we had to deal with our two negative influencers from in the guise of Gary Gensler, and again with our the ever present Elizabeth Warren. And just there's just some news on that front. This week, basically, coinbase in 22 requested some written rules and guidance in terms of, you know, they did a formal petition to ask for some guidance from the SEC in terms of the rules of the road. So there, as we've always kind of said, like they're, they're seeking it out, they're asking like, hey, guys, we this is kind of.

Speaker 1: 35:23

They have been for years.

Speaker 2: 35:25

Yeah. So you know, this week the SEC and their ultimate wisdom came back and said you don't need anything, everything is already out there that's needed and don't worry, we're going to work on what we want to work on. They said the existing securities regime appropriately governs crypto asset securities.

Speaker 1: 35:45

Which I believe was written in 19. There's one version of it that was like 1924 and one in 1936. So you could see how you know pre-internet, almost pre-airplane, how that would be very relevant.

Speaker 2: 35:59

Extremely relevant to what we were just discussing.

Speaker 1: 36:02

Because I mean because predicting Bitcoin and Ethereum would be super easy to then have this, these old laws apply. I mean again, it's just like boomers, step down. It's time to let younger, more digital or digital slash analog people like our generation to start making decisions to keep the entrepreneur ingenuity in this country alive and kicking, because that's what makes America better than many, many other places in the world. It's not that we're smarter, it's not a lot of things, it's that we are creative and we have the space to invent new things. And if there's going to be regulatory capture at these early stages from basically Elizabeth Warren working with the banks that 15 years ago she professed to, you know, be against, like what a scam this is Like.

Speaker 1: 37:05

to me, she is nothing more than an asset or bought on someone's balance sheet.

Speaker 2: 37:13

And I find it so. I was thinking about this, you know. So we're going into a political cycle in terms of an election and you know they just said that two of the five SEC commissioners disagreed with this decision and the two that disagreed were Republicans. And I just don't. I don't think in a representative government. You know, senator Warren represents what is essentially one of, if not the most left leaning states in the in the nation, and I don't even think that's a true characterization that people who are supporting crypto are not liberal, like. I think that due to you know a lot of the ideals.

Speaker 2: 37:56

I don't agree with that at all and I think that it's getting kind of just pushed out that way, like she's not the savior to the. You know intellectuals in Boston for protecting everybody from crypto. I think that's what we have. Look at just the. You know the mental space and ingenuity when you have an MIT, you have Harvard, you have all these different. You know forward thinking. Really, really you know intense thinkers out there.

Speaker 2: 38:19

I it makes it hard to believe, hard for me to believe that. You know all these people are that anti. You know exploring this development and they just want to keep, you know kind of the status quo going with the banks. What's kind of interesting also was it feels a little bit like, you know, the crypto world is getting ready to kind of stand up and fight this game a little bit more.

Speaker 2: 38:41

Crypto leaders have given 78 million in just the past three months and it seems like it's pretty much coin base, anderson, horowitz and the Winklevoss twins that really paid into this and they're supporting or funding into the super PAC called Fair Shake and then a PAC called Protect Progress and then defend American Jobs, and they're really just starting to realize hey, you know, money's gonna move the needle here. And I was reading something that Brian from Coinbase said and he said you know, if you look at, like the oil and gas Lobby or the banking lobby, I mean they're spending I don't know in the order of a hundred per year, a hundred million per year, but money moves the needle and for better or worse, that's how our system works.

Speaker 1: 39:24

So it's just remember one one caveat to that whether they do or don't spend a hundred million a year, remember the last hundred plus years of politics they were. They had politicians in place. The laws are already written to protect the bankers and the oil companies. Now the crypto industry has to come in from the outside and Fight for the good people in this industry. And yeah, let's, let's nail the scammers. We all agree that SBF is a effing idiot, right, but we need to keep the ingenuity alive and this is a huge step in the right direction. I actually reached out to them and I'm like you know what you're looking for someone in in the Midwest, I'll run. I don't know if you're just supporting existing people, but like, let's do this, you know. So I got all. I got a little fired up, like you know, but I would say I think we should be fired up.

Speaker 2: 40:23

Yeah, I mean, come on, we have passion, we. Everybody who touches his space and sticks through the space is Passionate and sees the value, the validity and the power of what can be so for it to be suppressed by, you know, status quo, you know pre-existing lobbying, dollars and influence. It's, it's completely Anti all the ethos that we're so excited about, you know, with doing to centralize dawn and looking at this and looking at you know how this frontier can really develop and and you know, being at the dawn of a new age and, to your point, at some point people have to get off the stage and get out of the way. And senator Warren, then, you know, after this comes out and she finds out that they have, you know, they funded this in, you know they're gonna kind of fight, fight the power with dollars. You know. Then she sends a letter to coinbase and to a coin center and the blockchain association Asking you know how many former military members of Congress are currently working with the three crypto organizations. You know, sir, like think about why it?

Speaker 1: 41:21

well, and think about all the in pharma, like the from the FDA straight to the you know seven digit pharma exec VP job. We're like I don't even really, they don't really have me doing anything here. It's like, yeah, you already did your job when you're at the FDA, you know. I mean there's allegedly there's, but there's so much Border crossing there. I love it, how it's so important for you in crypto and banking. I mean look at, look at the last, like that, where the treasury folks come from, and a lot of the cabinet. They come from a lot of those big Wall Street investment banks. I mean I know Goldman probably has the best track record of putting the most people in the right place for political office and you know what? I'm not saying that every single aspect. That is 100% wrong. But like you can't cherry pick your battles like that's fine If, if, if someone comes from the government and they believe in crypto and they go work for it, hats off to them.

Speaker 1: 42:16

So when I saw that, I was fired up because I feel like Andres and Horowitz and the Wink, levi and Brian Armstrong, I mean god bless them. They are, they're taking the fight back and they're coming out swinging and I feel like it it what it does is it gives the rest of us here in all the other fish swimming in the sea, kind of the courage to be like yeah, wait, why. Why am I always having to defend crypto from these insane allegations in the New York Times about? You know what Warren keeps saying about the Hamas funding, and it's already been proven that the number Not that any funding for terrorist organizations good, but it's so, manu, it's less than us cash is used, percentage wise, for funding illicit activities. And it's all on chain. You can see it and you can actually go Thwart it better America. So like, let's, let's turn the page and Regulate this in a smart way, but let the industry grow. So it's. The regulatory capture doesn't happen right out of the gate, like I've got to show you.

Speaker 2: 43:28

Yeah, it was gonna say in. When we talk about all this, it come, everything comes down to. You know who has what to lose, right, and who has what to lose. The banks have a lot to lose with the advent of a new, you know, system of monetary blah, blah, blah. However, you want to explain, chris, crypto, so they're so in cahoots that they're writing each other's words. You know, it's just, it's ridiculous. Please play this because it's, it's gonna.

Speaker 1: 43:50

Yeah, so this this dude works with Elizabeth Warren and they helped write this Anti-crypto money laundering bill, or whatever they're calling it, to make it sound like it's. You know it's protecting us from from crypto. But notice what he says right in the middle about how the banking industry helped them write it like the. They're not even hiding it the writings on the wall. So it's, it's, it's really quick.

Speaker 2: 44:18

Yeah for those, for those who can't see, we see a gentleman in front of a United States Lecturn with a microphone and a suit and tie with the requisite pin of some sort. Yeah, it's so funny you mentioned that I?

Speaker 1: 44:32

What's with the pins? Like, does that make you a politician? Like he's got like the baby blue suit and tie on and when you hear this guy talk he stutters halfway through it. I don't even think he knows what he's talking about. I don't even think he believes in what he's saying. He's probably just like. I know Warren's got the power right now, so I'm Doing this for the team, so let's take a look at the player.

Speaker 3: 44:55

Senator Warren and I have authored the digital asset anti-money, anti-money laundering act. That represents a step in the right direction. Again, I think that this is a light touch. The first thing we did is we went to the American Bank Association, said Help us craft this, and I don't know if you saw senator Warren's hearing with Jamie Diamond yesterday, but mr Diamond said basically, in his opinion, crypto was only a tool for criminals, and I think they're getting us that light touch bike by by the federal government, as opposed to a heavy touch as well. That's about all I know about crypto.

Speaker 1: 45:33

I mean you couldn't, you know? It's funny because truth is always stranger than fiction. Like you can't make this stuff up, like that is all you know on crypto. I mean, it's just, we need more people, we need to galvanize and again, armstrong and recent Horowitz and All of you out there coin center, thank you for taking the fight to them, because this is an awesome country. I love this earth and I love this country. Let's make it.

Speaker 1: 46:09

Keep the ingenuity, keep the innovation, keep the entrepreneurship and, quite frankly, we wouldn't be here if, if, bitcoin, ethereum and these, these immutable, decentralized blockchains Weren't better financial system. Not for the banks and the Jamie diamonds who is also, by the way, chase is working on all sorts of crypto stuff behind the scenes, as he calls it like a scam. So it's like he's playing both sides here and you know the people are listening to. But it's a better financial system that spreads out the Wealth to the citizens, you know, and it can still be monitored by government, but it's it's a more immutable system and it also keeps Money printer go burr in check. There's so many bonuses to this and I think people who get to the root of this are saying that's what's at the issue here if, if, if crypto Becomes mainstream and the stronger it gets, the less money printer can go burr because you have an off ramp.

Speaker 2: 47:16

I Just I can't get away from the fact the amount of times he mentioned touching and I don't know how appropriate you know utilizing touching and a lot of messaging is these days. He kept referring to light touch, while underneath it it said that the bill is to ban all cryptocurrencies in the United States. How is that a light touch? And then the only thing I know about crypto is what the banks told me about crypto. So where's the critical thinking there? As opposed to getting fed? You know exactly. You know the talking points from the, the organizations that you know have the most to lose by the advent of this technology.

Speaker 1: 47:56

Absolutely Well said, well said disco, okay, wow, I don't. I don't think we've gotten that hot and bothered in a while. It's good, you know. It's like it feels good, you know, because it's the first time I felt like, because they're going on the offensive and speaking their truths with this lobby and Just bring it back to Washington, it, it, it emboldens us to do the same as well in our lives and obviously we want to follow the truth and we want, you know, we don't want people to get scammed either. But if it, if it's not regulated in 2020s, 2023, 2024, like in this modern era, then what are you doing?

Speaker 2: 48:43

Yeah, it's, it's. I don't really understand. It's a weird time to really look at it, because another piece of news came out that yesterday, blackrock met with the NASDAQ as well as the SEC, to discuss the Bitcoin ETF. So you have Warren and her people talking about banning it, yet the other part of the engine is meeting to facilitate, being able to offer ways to invest and make this become an actual, you know, kind of potential mainstream entity. And so it's just. It's like the front of the front of the stage doesn't know what's happening backstage. And you know, for your point, with diamond, it's like they you know, they've talked about the potential alleged, alleged, alleged but you're talking about potential market manipulation of, you know, having someone in charge of the biggest bank in the in the country say, oh, crypto is bad, whereas in the back, and that may just lead to a dip, that then they're buying the dip. You know for the future. So it's just so.

Speaker 2: 49:44

This it's this whole age we're in right now, and I think that blockchain Makes more sense every second of the day when you start seeing this need for transparency, because right now, the ability, with more AI coming into play, with more sophistication, for, you know, manipulation and tricking people and fooling people and stealing from people to be, you know, just up on with it. The whole need for this kind of marriage between AI and blockchain and transparency, and I think our whole country, in our the world, kind of needs to look at what you were talking about the revoke, and, you know, just have a reset and start with a new frickin wallet, a new system, and just reboot this thing, because as long as we keep having, you know, people holding on to these, you know the arteries of the past, it's, it's not gonna be a clean system. So it's. We're really just at a fascinating Dualities and multiplicities of what's happening, and you know what people say first, what they mean and why they're saying it. So it's a it's a riveting time one.

Speaker 1: 50:46

The thing that gets me so hot and bothers Main Street USA Everyday, people are the ones who are getting screwed. Because if you are a good citizen and you read, you know If you're more in the Democratic's Democrat side. You read your New York Times and but you know even the Wall Street Journal. Everybody's been bashing this. So if you follow the mainstream media, you are going To probably not have put any even small investment in crypto, while the black rocks and everybody the ETF is is almost primed and ready to go your bite by doing this double-speak. You know, and you got Jamie Diamond and Chase doing a whole bunch of stuff in crypto. They'd be they be fools not to. So they're telling the general public one thing While they're doing the other with the other hand.

Speaker 1: 51:34

And I guess I think Everybody has this moment and I think a lot of people had this in COVID where you are an expert in something and you see Mainstream media cover it, you're like, hey, what that's wrong. That doesn't make sense. And it makes you, once you see under the curtain, it makes you question Well, what else is being kind of passed my way and that's. That's as far as I'll go with that, but it's just yeah, the fight it's. It's time to start speaking up and and doing something about it for for all of us.

Speaker 2: 52:11

Yeah, so this is, this is still on bother note but, but.

Speaker 2: 52:18

But I'll see how I can weave this together. If you've been listening, if you've been listening over the past, you know a handful of episodes, once we've kind of gone more from format, you've probably, you know, heard us and our, you know, kind of express our consternation to a degree about trying to understand how much of hype on X Twitter is Influencer driven or, you know, dc driven or whatever it may be. And you know we've talked a lot about you know kind of the. You know, oh, these are the things we believe in.

Speaker 2: 52:53

I don't know if this other stuff's just hype or not, but you know, right when we logged on to to do this show, Solana made a pretty big jump in terms of, you know, a legitimate market Market capitalization move where it flipped XRP. So you know you can say, oh, is it just hype or is it just this or that? The? You have to, you have to look at it critically and say, you know what, there is something Happening because this is moving up the ranks and there's obviously needs to be some validity behind that to see these things actually come to light.

Speaker 1: 53:28

Yeah, yeah, so on the screen here for those aren't watching. Solana is now the number five most valuable cryptocurrency by market cap. It is now at 34 billion 923 million. Four hundred forty eight thousand eight hundred and thirty three. I probably could have rounded that to 35 billion disco, but I did, I like here, I like hearing I like hearing the five friends. And it's changing every minute what it is. But Solana flip back. Yeah, you know, and I knew you were leading into this, so I have.

Speaker 1: 54:03

I have a confession to make, so I have been racking my brain and you've been hearing it on this show is Solana, is Solana worth investing in, and and what? Our conclusions to this point have been? That the hype train on Twitter, on crypto Twitter especially, has far exceeded the use case or Value that Solana should be, and I think I still Stand by that. But I, I, I guess it's a, it's an itch that I, I, I keep scratching and it's it's something that I keep researching each week, because I'm like, I Am always happy to look at my mistakes, like what am I missing? What am I missing? What am I missing? And I don't know if I'm missing anything, but I will say that I saw some arguments. There's kind of a new narrative coming around right now and it's kind of like now Bitcoin and Solana are beaten up on ETH, like I don't know if anyone's noticed, but ETH has been crabbing.

Speaker 1: 55:15

You know it went. What were we at in the couple of months ago? Maybe we're at 1900, but it's literally gone from what? 2000 to 2200, plus or minus, right, so it's gone up. What? 10%, 10%, nothing.

Speaker 1: 55:29

Yeah absolutely nothing. So you know Solana on that time. What is it? If it just passed, it's at 81. So Solana has forexed in three months. The hype is definitely there. You got all these bonk coins. You got all this stuff that you know. Remember they have. It was basically a code chain copy of Ethereum. They have the playbook from Ethereum. Now Solana runs way different.

Speaker 1: 55:55

Obviously it's all about hardware and speed of transaction and I'm not saying a big light bulb went off in my head, but I will say a little one did and I actually I was saving up for another validator for ETH and I put that money yesterday morning. So I'm kind of happy from yesterday morning to today. But I put it into Solana because I'm like what's the quickest way for me to get another validator? I'm like you know what I just saw on Google, that the Solana search volume has like three X in the last couple months. So all the hype is going there and I think the one thing that has resonated with me was a couple of bit corners I respect in Ordinals folks. They're basically saying look, bitcoin wins on pure decentralization and just hardened network and money and purely immutable. Solana wins on speed and cost of transactions. They're cheaper and I'm like, but who cares about transactions? But then I started kind of testing my own thoughts against myself, like I don't pay attention to get like if gas fees are like 20 or 30 bucks and I'm not snobby, I've just had ETH for a while I just don't like. To me it's just the cost of doing business and it's the value of the chain and I still believe that. But if I put myself in the mind of a brand new person coming in and obviously these chains are getting attention right now because we all feel the bull coming new people are coming in and you know they're going a lot of them to Solana I mean it's, it's, it's just right here. I mean, look at this. So this is crypto slam. This is, let's go last 30 days. Last 30 days blockchain by NFT sales volume. And remember, bitcoin has all their BRC 20 tokens baked in there, so that one is exceptionally high. Only a portion of those are BRC, but Bitcoin's making a huge run here. In 30 days, ethereum is above Solana, but barely. But if you go to seven days, solana is 20% over Ethereum at 104 million in transactions to Ethereum's 81. Now Ethereum has another 47 million in wash trading, which is very rampant there. But just go to the one day. I mean, solana is trading more NFTs than Ethereum. And I'm not saying that's the BLN doll and I'm not saying these are the only decisions, but it may.

Speaker 1: 58:21

I think, and I think a lot of ETH people are going over because they know the ETH playbook, they know how the air drops work. New tokens go crazy, nfts can go crazy. They're probably a little smarter. So you've got some ETH people going over for cheaper transactions and I am firmly I do firmly believe that right now some people are going over for cheaper transactions because who, brand new to the space, if you get your first two grand in Ethereum, who wants to pay 50 to 100 bucks in gas fees? You're like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That doesn't even go to the thing who gets those gas fees. I think the value of the Ethereum blockchain, especially the validators and the people securing the network, is huge. But I think the L2s aren't here yet. Protodank sharding to speed up the L1 is not here yet. So I bought some Solana. I did it.

Speaker 2: 59:15

Yeah, that was a. It doesn't need to be a confessional, you know like it feels like one, though.

Speaker 1: 59:20

I feel, I honestly feel guilty and that shows how you can get into your Maxi, into your Maxi lanes.

Speaker 2: 59:28

Rightfully. You're not cheating on anybody. You know you're diversifying and you're giving respect and to I think the biggest part of what you said that really sticks out is I guess we have to look at it like crypto generational right, like cycle generational right. So if you were, you know you got in and whatever it was 16, 17, 18, you know you're of a certain generation, so you have a certain set of values and you know kind of norms from that perspective. But you also have, you know, perspective in terms of, oh, it's just this much ETH, which you know I have more because I got it, blah, blah, blah, you know. So all that. But I think your point I think your point is really is really true Like, if you're just starting off and you're going to do it, you're like what the heck is this? I can do this other thing just as fast, if not faster, and way cheaper. And once you start doing that, you're going to be like oh, what are those boomers doing on the other thing? So it's going to be interesting to kind of see the different classes of when people entered the space and their allegiances. And you know I will say, though, look at the Bitcoiners, you know who when I came in, it was like, oh, bitcoin's great, it's like a pet rock, you know, da, da, da, but everything's happening on Ethereum. So then it was like, oh, give credit to the Bitcoiners for holding through and getting kind of their. Another new day in the sun.

Speaker 2: 1:00:44

And I think that Ethereum is to me. Yes, I, you know, I'll sniff a little Solana, but I'm still going to be trying to build up my ETH right now, because I'm also looking at some of the other activity and some of the other things that have buzz, and I'll quote, like a mutable X for one and render for another, and those are some projects and tokens that have really, you know, gotten a lot of you know kind of space and a lot of buzz. And I just thought about it. I'm like, okay, that's great, but they're on Ethereum, you know. So you still have so much that's going on there. Ethereum might not be the, you know, the one that everyone's looking at when the party starts and oh, when are they showing up? Right now? They might not be, you know, in vogue, so to speak, but at the end of the day, in the beginning of the day, a lot of stuff is being built on there and things that you know have are generating their own kind of standalone buzz, will only help to support the chain overall.

Speaker 2: 1:01:38

I do have a question for you. So, when I know that you know you've, you've seen, like D gods or blah, blah, blah, or these NFT projects, switch chains, how, what is kind of the equivalent to kind of a project that built on, you know, on Ethereum, to potentially switch to Solana? Because I feel like if I saw a mutable X or render or some of these other kind of buzzy, ethereum tokens and projects migrate over. I just don't know if you really can. Like it seems like it'd be pretty easy to switch a NFT collection to a different chain. I don't know, like, if you've been building, you know these other elements, that kind of these sophisticated programs, if that's feasible to switch chains or not, does that make any sense?

Speaker 1: 1:02:33

Yeah, no, it's, it does, and it's a good question. I mean the only ones I am aware of, and I don't research this too deep, and I know D gods left Solana for Ethereum, but you know, it's just funny. Those mad lads look a lot like the D gods, I suspect they're. I don't know if Frank is behind it himself, but or the artist or whatever, but it a lot of the art, the youths, all that stuff looks kind of the same to me. I guess I'm going to answer this by not answering your question and answering a different question, which is, even though I just bought Solana because I'm basically trying to jump on this thing to watch it grow, I would not personally yet and I might eat these words I don't trust Solana's base layer blockchain. I've been around long enough where I've seen it go down. For a day here, a day there. It's gone down what? Six or seven times in the last couple of years. We used to write for this little bankless thing called the rug and we used to joke about it all the time. It was actually kind of fun like, oh, when Solana going down again, but it's gotten better over the years. I still wouldn't put some super nice expensive piece of art on there. On Ethereum, I would. On Bitcoin, I absolutely would, because the Bitcoin one is by far ordinals, are by far the most immutable. They're inscribed, they're those are etched into eternity, those are on the blockchain. And Ethereum's you know, the Ethereum ones are on the blockchain too, and I don't know the Solana equivalent.

Speaker 1: 1:04:06

I will say, interestingly, though, quit who is we mentioned him before one of the better and more prominent ETH solidity coders actually was poking around in Solana code and he was like where is everything? Like how do you do stuff? And someone responded to them. They're like, well, a lot of it. You just kind of plug into what's already been done and just kind of tweak there, and I am grossly over simplifying this, but the point is like, don't forget that Ethereum is way more decentralized. Not only is it on solidity, but it's actually Ethereum was written from the ground up in a couple languages for security, and I there's three of them I think it's solidity go and I can't remember the other one but I mean that it was built with decentralization in mind at first. When one of the most prominent ETH developers is like and granted, he's probably just starting to poke around because it's getting so much buzz and it's forexed. But when he's like, where is everything? Like, how do I actually like turn the banner at the top green? How do I make a handshake here for this transaction? They're like, oh, just use the script, use the API. To me it just again, this is preliminary thoughts, but it's Solana still feels very centralized.

Speaker 1: 1:05:35

I suspect the foundation is trying to make a lot of deals, create a lot of buzz. They're getting on all the shows. They're renting mind space in all of our heads right now. And look, I bought yesterday and you know what, from yesterday to today I'm up and tomorrow I might cut in half again. I'm definitely not abandoning ETH as my. If I had to rank them, I'm going to put myself in the spot here. I think I would go Bitcoin ETH than if I had to pick a third right now, I think it would be Solana or maybe OP Lair 2 on the Ethereum stack. And again, this is just my opinion and at this moment could change tomorrow. But so just interesting things to think about. Is much hype is Solana is getting. I also know I'm jumping on a bandwagon because I know where this ETF coming out. For whatever reason, we know why Bitcoin is getting all the pump, but so is Solana. It's almost like it's skipped ETH. I'm still a little baffled why, but the strongest argument I can see at this point are the gas costs.

Speaker 2: 1:06:46

Just from a timing thing too, the Ethereum ETFs are set for potential review and approval in second quarter, like in May. So it could be what we've talked about before, where it's just kind of drafting a little bit right now and we may look back and be like dude this was such a great opportunity to be stacking this, because it's not front running.

Speaker 1: 1:07:12

All right. So this is one of my favorite parts of the show, where we do follow up updates of past shows. It's the loom, it's the weaving together of stories and it's not just talking about whatever the news or whatever the you know is renting our headspace for the week all of us and the crypto Twitter timeline and all the news sources we check into. It's actually following on these stories to see where the threads lead, because some things come out into focus, other things come out, but a lot of times, at the root, they're all related. So let's start with the FTX bankruptcy settlement. There's some kind of in my opinion, gross news there. What?

Speaker 2: 1:07:54

happened, this guy. Well, I got to refocus a little bit because I started thinking about my experience, my inaugural experience with looms, and it goes back to Charlotte Bond and an individual loom project. I did indeed enjoy that.

Speaker 1: 1:08:12

I enjoyed, you know, going down that memory lane a heck of a lot more than looking at what's happening from kind of the bankruptcy side of things with FTX and the recent development on, you know, the revised re-organization, all the revises Hold on hold on For those who don't know what this goes talking about, just because people are probably like scratching their heads in kindergarten to maybe first grade, that there was this cool thing where it was a mini loom and we made these mini loomy rug things. I had mine, I swear, for the first 30, 35 years of my life, so from six years old to like 35, I don't know where it is now, but right when you said that my brother and sister had one but it was actually looking back, that and the key we made to hold all the keys out of the wood blocks and carpentry.

Speaker 1: 1:09:03

Those were some of the most memorable things we made and the clay faces. But Disco is talking about. We grew up together and we shared the same art teacher and we made these cool little loomy rugs. So there now. Now everyone demystified and back to our regular programming.

Speaker 2: 1:09:22

Yeah, but I would like to see yours because I have fond memories of the color scheme that I went with. Like I had like an orangey and purple thing and I think that it was representative of what I still like. So it was kind of an early stamp and look into what I appreciate from an aesthetic value.

Speaker 1: 1:09:41

Yeah, mine was also exceptionally colorful. I think I just kept there might have been a little white in there, but I just kept changing colors over. I think I used like every color I'm like oh, I'm going for it, but I loved it and I think my mom used it for years.

Speaker 1: 1:09:57

I think it sat like in a nice place and then, even as I got in my teens and twenties, it was like under my mom loved plants and loved gardening. It was under the water dishes, but it was like it even served that purpose later in its life, which I love. So you bring back old memories that have everything and nothing to do with crypto, so I thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:10:20

Indeed, that's the role I play at times, getting back to this. It's kind of gross and it doesn't feel great, but I think the net of the news from the FTX debtors and the estate and how they're doing it is basically we all know that, as of recording right now, or doing the show right now, bitcoin's sitting right about $44,000, which is a great rise, and people who held should be happy that they stuck to their convictions and did that. Nevertheless, if you were looking to get paid out from any returns from FTX, you're going to get $17,000 for your Bitcoin and it's just 17,000 per Bitcoin.

Speaker 2: 1:11:04

Yeah. So they're basically using this, I'd say, kind of a glitchy way to pay people less and say, oh, we're going to base any payouts on the cost or the market value of your items at the time of the bankruptcy, completely disregarding any growth in value since that point.

Speaker 1: 1:11:27

And one third X. So you basically got exited at the lowest point and not voluntarily exited, you got exited.

Speaker 2: 1:11:40

And you were forced to hold.

Speaker 2: 1:11:42

You couldn't use those for, you couldn't repurpose those funds for something else.

Speaker 2: 1:11:47

You're locked and loading, stuck with it and you're not going to get any benefit from the increase in valuation. And, to make it a little disco centric, it makes me get a little worried about if this is just going to be the new trend on the bankruptcies and the bailouts, because, as we talked about in a previous episode, I have some funds that are locked into the Earn program and they're going through their settlement with another bankruptcy and everything like that, and it would really bum me out because I had allocations of Bitcoin as well as Solana, and I've kind of always still thought of those as elements of my portfolio and looked at them. Looked at them from a current market value and it's going to really sting if my Bitcoin is at that. My only thought is Solana could have been at that point at the current price, if not a little higher. But it's just a shoddy way to treat people and it's just. It makes you want to take a shower when you see that people play these games.

Speaker 1: 1:12:52

It makes you ask the question who so somebody is getting that upside because that Bitcoin, that Solana at you know it sounds like you're saying this was so long ago. Actually, solana was in the 70s or 80s.

Speaker 2: 1:13:05

It could have been yeah, Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:13:07

So it wasn't in the 20s. You're saying it wasn't a four-bagger. So I really wonder is it the lawyers? Is it FTX, remember? They're trying to like, rebrand themselves, which everyone's like you're dead.

Speaker 1: 1:13:21

Yeah, like I. Honestly, if there was an FTX t-shirt rebranded, I would probably buy it, purely for the irony. I mean, what an absolute joke. So are they using that for their own coffers, or is someone? Is someone benefiting from that? Like that seems so egregious to me that you don't keep the asset that it's. It's like your car got stolen and then they give it to you.

Speaker 2: 1:13:55

With a tire. Yeah, you get two tires, but you don't have the engine Like. Thanks.

Speaker 1: 1:14:02

Yeah, it just makes absolutely no sense. Or you have, like you have like a 1966 limited edition Shelby Cobra. You know one of one and they're like let's see a Mustang, here you go, it's $29,000 with depreciation. You're like, uh, no, yeah, like it, just yeah. I'll be curious to see. So you're worried that you know from the Gemini company this earned thing that got all messed up with the DCG finance right and that's all getting worked out.

Speaker 1: 1:14:37

You're just like oh God, now my expectations are. They're going to give it to me. It's like they're going to pick, whether you know.

Speaker 2: 1:14:46

I think they're just going to give a percent of the cash equivalent of the assets at the time that they got At the time At the time, which is what right, which? And I don't think if you're doing it that way, you're not giving the asset that you owned is what's really bugging me. So if you're getting, I would think that from reading this, you would end up getting like $17,000 for the Bitcoin. You wouldn't even get that percent of a Bitcoin. So it becomes not crypto, it becomes a cash settlement, and then I think you then would have to go and rebuy assets if you wanted to mirror what you had before.

Speaker 1: 1:15:25

Which is a taxable event.

Speaker 2: 1:15:27

Yeah, it's just dude.

Speaker 1: 1:15:28

It's a disaster up and down the road Like it's just or minus, like I never told you, because if you had, if earn actually worked, you got, you put Ethan, you staked it and Solana put it in, staked it and then got it out by moving it to a different place. You don't, there's no taxable event there. Now it's, it's in a cash. That's like the worst thing that could possibly happen. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 1:15:55

So, yeah, it just gets worse. You know, and good luck on a rebrand, guys, if you're going to, you know you're going to show, show your colors there once again in terms of who you really care about. But that was kind of a kind of a story that wasn't too fun to follow or to see. Connections have been just on Botutee chat lately, but I think if they were moving into Moving on other stories that are pretty frickin interesting and I guess I'll lead more with the newest part of this, but you know, the eigen layer has been popping up, it's eigen layer, just say it.

Speaker 1: 1:16:24

Just say eigen layer, eigen layer. Fine, it's eigen layer when. I see when I see you've called it something different, like four weeks in a row now.

Speaker 2: 1:16:33

Yeah, because when I see two vowels leading off a word, I get confused as to which is prominent.

Speaker 1: 1:16:39

Let me see, e I g e n. I mean, it could only be eigen or eigen, but it's a hardG. How you gonna go, e we're not in Sweden.

Speaker 2: 1:16:49

I might go. I have a proclivity for Swiss elements, I don't know. I.

Speaker 1: 1:16:56

Can I?

Speaker 3: 1:16:56

can leave that way, believe I do well with this list.

Speaker 2: 1:17:00

It's all right, fine, I get.

Speaker 1: 1:17:02

What is I get there?

Speaker 2: 1:17:04

Basically, it's an opportunity for people to do um Restaking, and what happened was they had. They came out and they had limits is terms of how high it could, how much it could take and where you can. Now I'm just looking at the spelling drive myself, but they basically Asian. They had a cap of X amount of ether. They raised that cap a couple of days ago and it they moved it from 120,000 ETH to 500,000 ETH and just like that, per now.

Speaker 1: 1:17:38

Care person per a no for the whole thing. No, for the whole thing, so they have a total TVL cap. Okay, I got it.

Speaker 2: 1:17:45

Yeah, and now the cap is. Due to the increase in the cap, it went up to having over 900 million in the old pool. So, oh my gosh, it's ridiculous, it's just, it's so much. And you know we were talking earlier about, oh, the narrative of Where's Ethereum in this whole party. This is essentially another way to stake and restake Ethereum. So to me, if you're gonna have that much upscale or that much people jumping in and getting involved, I don't think this narrative that you know Ethereum's falling apart is is valid. And I don't mean to keep going back to hey, kids, get off my lawn. But when you kind of look at this, this is a kind of an example of there's a significant interest in figuring out how to, you know, do regular staking, restaking, liquid staking, all these things, but they're fundamentally around Ethereum. So I think it's an interesting story from that perspective.

Speaker 1: 1:18:36

Yeah, just in case we have a new person, though, restaking is. So we've talked about Lido, rocket pool, right, and and those are the main liquid stakers for Ethereum. But you could be a solo staker too. So that's what I'm a solo sticker, so I stake my Ethereum and I get of the transactions any theorem that happen out there. I get a percentage of that based on how many Stakers are out there. So that is called staking and that's what secures the network. I validate the transactions and I get ETH back from securing it over time, right? So think about that is like a long-term annuity.

Speaker 1: 1:19:13

Restaking and this is why disco is is kind of sounding the alarm bells right now. Restaking is where you take that likes. Let's say, you stake on either rocket pool or Lido and then from those you get this stuff called either wreath or Steath. Steath is Lido, wreath is rocket pool. It's basically ETH. It's the same price as ETH, but it's like, think of it as a placeholder, because when you stake it, you're putting it in their smart contracts and they're saying cool, almost like here's your equal amount. If you stake to ETH, you Lido will. You're staking the ETH. They give you the steeth while the ETH is out of commission. Eigen layer, eigen Eigen layer then lets you take the steeth and the wreath and Restake it here.

Speaker 1: 1:20:08

And I guess my lesson from all this is it was no rocket pool I. I'm fully out of the rocket pool. No, and I'll go into that in a second. But getting into those and staking in those, you don't necessarily get out right away, especially if something goes bad and it gets unpegged if you're Restaking the Staked stuff you have. So you're basically like we'll call it I think it's accurate to say the second derivative You're staking, that you're locking that up. Everything's hunky-dory if you're the first in and first out, but if something goes wrong and You're not one of the early ones out, you're, you're basically, you're stuck Like the you're adding.

Speaker 1: 1:20:59

There's a. There's a building that's on fire. You're in the hotel in the other wing of the building that doesn't have an exit. You've got to go through the burning building that's on fire. You got to get there first, so you've got to unsteak. You got to get to the burning building, then you got to get out. What? Remember these protocols have these little what light os was called like the was like the bucket list. It was a cute little name. But if something gets unpegged, they reserve the right to slow down Panics. So think about eigen layer on that second level of it's. They slow you down. Then you've got to get like your back of the back of the back of the line.

Speaker 2: 1:21:43

So I'm sure it's like adding in. It's like adding an additional extremely long corridor to get out of the Potential burning building. You know you're just adding another tunnel that you have to claw through in the event of a panic situation and for them to be able to dictate the exit Strategy you have to really succumb to. You know full trust in that operation and, as we've kind of alluded to from doing a few of these shows the less Layers of being able to pull the parachute should you need to, the better. And this just seems like it's another Opportunity to add more leg work would like work to exit should you want to.

Speaker 1: 1:22:31

Right. So here's all the things you can restake again the rocket pull, the Lido Coinbase, state Deether, I mean, it's basically all the big ones here. So it, you know, I guess disco, you and I probably come out more on the conservative side. I mean, we heard bankless talking about it and they're like oh, this, it's getting a bull markets come in like this is kind of G gen, but it's not super D gen and I guess I would say like Everything is always fine until it's not.

Speaker 1: 1:23:05

I'm a big proponent of staking, but double staking I guess where I get stuck is Okay, so I get that in Lido, that I get the steeth right, so I get that one to one. How how are they creating value on my Steeth? That to me just seems like now you're playing a, a Ponzi, an alleged Ponzi, like a layer game, an MLM game or something. I don't see how value accrues that way. But maybe a trader would send me like dude, stock market with derivatives has been that way. It's been hanging on a thread for 30 years like get in or Get out or don't do it, and you know we'll, maybe we'll get wrecked, maybe we won't. So I Don't know this.

Speaker 2: 1:23:59

This seems crazy to me yeah, it's, you know it's double downing and you always got a wonder. I go back to what you say. It's what I've learned from kind of listening through and seeing. This process is, and even going back to the beginning of the show today. You know that that kind of the ledger, you know exposure and kind of that feeling of oh gosh, I want to, you know, make sure everything's secure and safe. The more layers you add, despite the. Yeah, it's great to get higher returns, I get the, I get the, I get the hook right but what's really behind it, I think is is worth it really exploring and understanding.

Speaker 1: 1:24:35

Yeah, I love this. Eigen Lair DNA is based in research and academia, like.

Speaker 2: 1:24:41

What does that?

Speaker 1: 1:24:42

mean. That's a red flag to me. But we'll read the white paper more. We don't want to sound like old boomers, which we're not. We're not. Boomers were Gen Xers, but we're firmly planted. Half and digital, half analog, so we got the best of all worlds.

Speaker 1: 1:24:55

But this again, I've been burned enough. We talked about hacks and stuff like that. Like I definitely want to make money, but I think One lesson I've learned over all these years is If I had done nothing but by my original Bitcoin and ETH, and never even dollar cost averaged in again, I would be wealthier, at least in crypto terms, than I am today. I don't regret any of the trades, but I would be wealthier. So the more these games are played, it works really well early until there's a hiccup in the system. And then the beauty of Of blockchain and EVM and these systems is they clean themselves up efficiently Even if there's a stagnation like it doesn't just, you know, like Gemini and the whole earned thing. It doesn't just say like up, your money's locked out, you go to bankruptcy. That's, that's a human problem. These are, you know, coding and smart contract problems. They work themselves out. You just might not be happy with how it shakes out for you.

Speaker 2: 1:26:03

Yeah, click on the um, click on the white paper. Okay, where? Is it? Oh yeah, third one down.

Speaker 1: 1:26:12

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:26:13

Yeah. Oh. Interesting so for all those listening.

Speaker 1: 1:26:20

I just clicked on for the white paper for I can learn oops, that page doesn't exist or is private. Now they're like here's some popular pages. It's like there's a popular page, but I could you know restake with? I can layer. So yeah, I can you know and I don't want to sound like like. Like you said, get on, get off my lawn. You know I'd be like dude, I'm your, I'm the guy who mows your lawn. Be like oh, stay on my lawn for the necessary amount of time.

Speaker 1: 1:26:45

You know we don't want to be those people, but I Just again like hold, Keep it simple, stake, you know, spread your risk out, dollar cost, average in and don't Don't go over your skis with with a lot of stuff. And if you want to tinker with this, do it. Come on the show and tell us why it's the greatest thing ever. But to me this this feels like kind of a derivative DGN play.

Speaker 2: 1:27:13

Yeah, shades of I got. I feel shades of Tara to a degree.

Speaker 1: 1:27:18

Yeah, and I don't, did I mention this disco? I think I slightly did, but I finally am fully exited from my rocket pool pool. It was a fun test. But you know, running a Dap-Node, knock rocket pool and Dap-Node, those two don't play nice together. When I Right, you know the rocket pool folks, when I finally got a couple answers out of them to finally be able to, I got all the ETH out and kind of no problem.

Speaker 1: 1:27:40

But unstaking the actual rocket pool was a pain. Some of the rocket pool finally got back to me and then I kind of had to like Interpolate what they were saying because I was using Dap-Node. And then once I said I showed my cards, I'm like this didn't work, I'm on a Dap-Node he says, oh, you should have told me in the first place, go talk with them, not our problem, like that's why I didn't tell you in the first place, because I needed to. But he gave me enough nuggets where I could kind of rewrite the code and what I needed to write.

Speaker 1: 1:28:08

But it was, it was, and granted, I was doing it kind of through this third party, this Dap-Node system for solo staking, but for rocket pool, for me the the increase was not. I don't think it merited the extra layer of Staking. Whereas I can get my ETH out, I'm only limited by how many people want to get out of the beacon chain there. I'm limited by rocket pool smart contracts then getting out. So, again, as disco said, I'm I'm in the Second building at the Venetian and there's no exits on that side.

Speaker 2: 1:28:46

I have to go to the main lobby through a long tunnel, then get out before the and there's not necessarily not necessarily very visual Exit signs, so you got to kind of navigate and find your way out, and that can make things a little harder too.

Speaker 1: 1:29:00

Yeah, I just woke up. I still, it was in the middle of the night, so I'm still wearing the sleep mask, so it's very, it's very difficult to feel around and get out, um, so I just wanted to tie that in with with the eigen layer stuff. So, you know, stake yes, but, but this may be a little over stretching a little. But you know, we'll keep a close eye on it. And they're close to Uh, what is it? A billion dollars now of.

Speaker 2: 1:29:23

Yeah, as of, that article, which was yesterday, was 900,000 plus. So they're. I think the capacity is 1.1 billion or something like that, so I think they'll probably reach it, if they didn't reach it as of.

Speaker 1: 1:29:33

Yeah, they're probably already had a billion today.

Speaker 2: 1:29:35

Um.

Speaker 1: 1:29:37

So all right, cool, and, and then our final story.

Speaker 2: 1:29:41

Yeah, the last thing we're going to touch on and you know this was just to kind of have another Take on. You know what's been, you know seeming, seeming lists, endless amounts of takes on what's going to happen with the etf one way or the other. And I just hadn't heard this before. But Somebody came out with this that said, um, you know, don't, don't ignore what could potentially happen to the exchanges with the approval of a bitcoin etf. Meaning, if people are able to just buy into bitcoin via the etf, what could that potentially do to the amount of transactions on On um exchanges? So if you don't have to go to the exchange, what are they going to do For the revenue that they would normally get from people purchasing bitcoin directly? So it's just kind of an interesting. You know we're looking at all this. You know from kind of a no-transcript before and after, where things are in fundamental change.

Speaker 2: 1:30:44

I just hadn't thought of it that way where, if people are able to just purchase via the ETF and they can get in and out and do whatever they want that way, could that potentially lead to a heck of a lot of less retail and other folks paying rates to be able to purchase directly on the coin bases of the world. You hear all these different scenarios of how things will shake out. Some people say that it's baked in with the approval. Some people say, no, you're wrong, it's going to jump to a million in 10 days, or it's going to jump to 100,000. Again, it's all just pulling it out of the back because there's no historical framework aside from when the gold ETF happened. But I'm sorry, the gold ETF isn't the same thing. We're not in the same market. We don't have this many people that have already developed their own understanding of how to operate retail with this new asset, which you didn't have with gold necessarily.

Speaker 1: 1:31:41

So we're in a whole different kind of so, you think it could possibly be way bigger Because, remember, gold was always an accepted form of currency too, so they didn't have that roadblock to get over, but obviously there's a demand here for cryptocurrencies. I think the other point is, how long is it going to take for some of these institutions to be able to move fast enough? Because remember, the other thing that we haven't really even talked about, but Michael Saylor pointed it out, but it was in the news last week. It kind of went under the radar the way accounting is done for corporations Bitcoin as a treasury item on a balance sheet, I believe, is going to be the full amount.

Speaker 1: 1:32:29

Now I'm not an accountant, but before it was not as advantageous, and I guess Saylor said that was one of the two massive things before bigger corporations started dabbling with putting that in their treasury. So that timing of those two could be insanely fortuitous. But this might be. I mean, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if this was a slow motion success where we're like, wow, all these institutions are just going through all the regulation and we're like scoop, scoop, scoop, scoop scoop, scoop.

Speaker 1: 1:33:06

And all in 2024,. We're like scoop, scoop, scoop, scoop, scoop. Just keep scooping Bitcoin or down the tree to Ethereum or Solana or whatever, to prepare for the next one.

Speaker 2: 1:33:17

But I don't know that there. We should end it there because nobody knows.

Speaker 2: 1:33:21

You know what I mean, and it's all just talking head stuff, it's narrative talk, it's flim, you know, oh, they had a meeting. Oh, what does that mean? Well, that means, you know, and then so it kind of just feeds to the fire. But I do say that, you know, as we sit down, you know, the first couple weeks of the new year at least, we have something pretty interesting to pay attention to. And you know, we've been kind of sitting in this. I kind of liken it to, you know, before the merge, everything was like, oh well, is the merge going to happen, is it going to work, and you know, and then it kind of went and it didn't really, you know, have this massive impact on, you know, price or anything like that. It was kind of it kind of just smoothly.

Speaker 1: 1:34:00

I know it just worked. Everyone's like oh cool, it worked Like yeah, it's like, oh, they changed. Y2k. They're like oh, January 1st 2000. Like, oh, see it work on Monday.

Speaker 2: 1:34:10

So it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be the worst thing, to your point, if it was slow, because the bigger thing would be that it actually got past the gate of becoming accepted and becoming, you know, a something that anyone can purchase and really that opening up of it, the timing and the initial days after, months after, or whatever, the fact that it gets the quote, legitimacy of being able to be offered and in kind of condoned, if you will, I think that's obviously the bigger thing that we'll look back at years from now and be like, well, that was a fundamental change.

Speaker 1: 1:34:46

Well, well said, that was definitely a fun show to go through. Obviously, with all the hacks and scams it wasn't. But you know that's also the reality of our space. And being early, and you know again, you know my heart goes out to you. I mean, he just took it like a complete champ. He's like you know, I've protected against this and I just I let slip for a second and I got caught up in the transaction and that's how quickly it can happen. And then he shared with everybody and that's, you know, that's what the best people in the space do.

Speaker 1: 1:35:20

We share with each other the best practices because we're before the UI UX, we're before the whole the Veeves and the candies, these siloed lame marketplaces like we're wearing where it's raw and where where, where it's. You know you're camping outside and it's the elements. So you know, we all just have to figure out together as it solidifies, because at some point it will go mainstream and it will get simpler. And I guess those will be when we are on the porch with the country time lemonade saying remember when you know, remember the, remember the looms and art class and kindergarten that was, that was special times.

Speaker 1: 1:36:01

But yeah, I got straight back to kindergarten, not to the crypto days.

Speaker 2: 1:36:04

Yeah, but I have, I have nothing but respect for you know, sharing that, sharing the story and and the vulnerability and, you know, kind of for the greater good. You know kind of putting your hubris aside and sharing what happened, because just hearing that story and walking through it today has left an impact on me and I really do think that my takeaway really is that I'm going to make sure that I put in a couple of speed bumps on all the different things that I can get into, just so that you don't get caught up into these. You know these multi, multi-layered emotional scams and plays that people are out there. It's unsettling for sure, but kudos for the, for the strength to share and making the community better overall. That could kind of be the something good. You know, a lot of times we every show we like to take a step back and focus on, you know something positive and I think that that really does, you know, represent it. But I will say something that is not related to you know kind of the crypto space necessarily, although it somewhat could be, which is I do believe fully in. You know the importance of touching grass and getting away, and what I'm really thankful for is just having a body that can move and just the, just the fact that, like you know, you can feel kind of sluggish or feel this or that, and you know, there rarely is a time when I've been upset that I worked out, you know, like it almost if I'm like, oh, dude, I really don't want to do it, I'm five, 10 minutes in. You know, there's something to be said for endorphins just being one of the greatest things and it can really kind of turn everything around.

Speaker 2: 1:37:43

And you know, going back to the beginning of the show, we were talking about me feeling vulnerable with the, with the ledger exploit and what was going on there.

Speaker 2: 1:37:52

It was also a great situation because I was out in nature and I was able to gain some perspective and, you know, get some sweat going and everything like that. And like before we do the shows, you know, I'm always like, how are we going to do this? How is this going to come together? You know, and I have a mountain of different thoughts coming through my head, shooting back and forth, and I find once I, you know, do a little workout and get my head clear, it's like, wow, that is something that really is, you know. And then how great water tastes and just these simple things. Like this body is pretty, it's pretty remarkable and health is super important and you know it's just tied to overall wellness. So I guess my my something good is that I have some gratitude just on the ability to kind of change your mindset through. You know, movement and kind of movement being medicine, so that's, that's kind of my little soapbox there.

Speaker 1: 1:38:38

Well said, keep, keep the blood pumping for sure. So everybody hit that like button, leave a comment, subscribe to us make it five stars If you like it.

Speaker 1: 1:38:49

If not, email us personally if you don't like it and tell us what we could do better. And if you have ideas for a show, or if you want to come on and talk about this, that and the other and it resonates with decentralization or crypto and giving it to people straight and telling sometimes hard stories to to make us all smarter and better, please let us know. Come on and do all that fun stuff. So yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:39:12

So as we, as we head into the, into the future, you know, I want to end this show by just saying this is always intended for entertainment purposes only. None of it is considered to be financial advice or meant to be financial advice, as we talked about multiple times in this show, where it's important to put some guardrails in place to protect yourself from making decisions that may not be in the best interest of you. You know outside of that moment and you know getting over your skis, so just just play smart, play safe and and make sure that you take care of yourself and do your own research.

Speaker 1: 1:39:43

Well said, take care everybody. Goodbye guys, bye guys.